Between Two Firms is an interview series accompanying Economics@Work. We ask alumni speakers the candid questions students can’t ask in person. This week’s guest is Dr. Diane Lim, a ’83 Econ alumnus with over 30 years’ experience across academia, government, nonprofit research organizations and consulting. Diane is currently Principal at District Economics Group (DEG), a Washington DC based economics consulting shop.
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C: In your talk, you said your mother once asked you, “Why pursue a Ph.D. in Economics?” Could you dig into what makes a Ph.D. in Economics special versus other graduate degrees?
D: What attracted me to economics was all the public policy insights you could get from it, because that was my favorite part of economics. I felt like that’s not something you learn from business school, and also, I felt like as a social science that Economics had a lot more to offer public policy than some of the other social sciences.
C: Did you ever consider pursuing a degree in political science instead?
D: You know, I was never really interested in politics. I did not follow political debates much, and I never had the urge to work for a campaign or anything like that. I was attracted to Economics because it seemed to be an unbiased, objective way of viewing public policy. (To this day, I hate when politics gets in the way of or mucks up good policy analysis.)
C: You’ve advised that students should not get a Ph.D. unless they know that it’s the path they want. Could you give some tips as to how students can evaluate whether they want a graduate degree?
D: Right. As I’ve gotten older and further from the influence of my parents, I realized that I have always underestimated the value of work (and life!) experience in guiding one’s career experience. If I think about all the expertise I bring to my job now, only a small part of that comes from my graduate studies, and a bigger part comes from working and seeing how policy plays out in real life. So I’m more inclined to tell my kids that they can learn a lot in working in the real world, probably more than in the traditional classroom. I think of higher education these days as a signal/credential you get, but you certainly shouldn’t stop learning when you graduate from college. And I think that one learns more from one’s real world experience than one’s college curriculum in figuring out what to do in your career and your life. You have to live each step for a while (in the moment!) before you know with conviction what you want your next step to be.
C: So moving on to your job, what do you specifically do day-to-day as a principal?
D: So “principal” is just a way of saying that I have a principal role in the business. I have a very direct role in finding and choosing clients, deciding which projects to take on, and shaping the research agenda for each client’s project. I interact with a very diverse set of people and issues, which is very exciting for me because I’ve never enjoyed just focusing on one narrow line of research at a time. I like big picture ideas and also just learning from different projects and stretching myself with every bit of work I do. I enjoy being able to direct the work we end up doing at our firm.
C: You’ve worn many hats over the years—how did you know every time that it was time to move on or transition?
D: I’ve always known, because it was either that I was being pulled somewhere by someone, or that something was happening in the organization that I didn’t like and which didn’t make me happy. I’ve always wanted jobs where it felt like I was continually growing intellectually, and maybe I’ve changed jobs more often than your average economist in D.C., but I’ve really enjoyed gaining new experience and working with different types of people on different issues.
C: You’ve had a very long career path—do you think that it is different for women than men, walking your path?
D: I think by the nature of our discipline, economics as a subject matter focuses on very rational behavior as a central model; it doesn’t really allow for much messiness in the analysis, and I think that has affected the kinds of people that tend to be attracted to the Economics profession. I think women have a hard time in our profession because we tend to be the ones who bring up that more human side of behavior and decision making, and some of the profession probably looks upon those perspectives as “softer” and kind of “squishy” and less intellectually rigorous as the more traditionally theoretical points of view. So our work has probably been discounted in our profession for a long time—but I think the gender bias and disparity problems are finally being at least acknowledged. (See the recent report of the AEA.) I think it’s an unfortunate thing that the economics profession hasn’t made as much progress on the gender front compared with other professions, but I also think it’s not surprising given the intellectual foundations of our discipline and how we explain human behavior and decision-making.
C: For these discriminations that you face in the workplace, are there any ways you can advocate for yourself and stand up for yourself as a woman that people will accept and find professional?
D: I think in every workplace, there are always men who are more “woke” than other men and are your genuine colleagues. I think it’s important for women, whatever your profession, to have good relationships with your male colleagues. It’s why I’m not a fan of quota programs, which tend to lead to “us vs. them” (women vs. men) feelings where the men may resent what is labeled as intentionally tilted preferences to the women. I’m more for setting up systems within organizations where men can start to see women as not opposites or competitors, but as peers and collaborators. Women need to develop relationships not just with women in higher places (though that’s a great place to start), but given that there often aren’t many women at the top, also with men in higher places.
C: I want to touch on your (former/past) blog, EconomistMom—you said it was about economic issues but with a mother’s intuition. Based on that dual perspective, what do you think that we as the next generation and as citizens should focus on and stay informed on, economically?
D: What I think always resonates with people and increases the influence of economics is when you can relate it to everyday life. People are always going to notice and pay attention to an issue if you bring it down to their level. The more personal you can make an economic issue (and talk about it in not-so-abstract terms), the more a person will care about that economic issue and start to understand the bigger picture.
C: This last question is based on your experience as U-M graduate: What is one thing you think everyone should do before they graduate from U-M?
D: Hmm. [Laughs]. Oh—well, the Ann Arbor art fair, does that still happen? That was my favorite time of year here. (I used to stay around in the summer and take summer classes, and one summer I actually worked a booth at the art fair.) I think that students should make sure you take some time to get to know and enjoy Ann Arbor the town, not just Ann Arbor the place that happens to hold the university in it. So I would say…go to the Art Fair. Spend some of your weekends and academic break times around town, so you can interact with and enjoy the community beyond the university.