Hi. I’m Sarah. I’m Owen. And I’m Stella. On this episode of Michigan voices, we wanted to talk about hair. We had the opportunity to sit down with Kai Dotson, president of Curl Talk at the University of Michigan, a student organization devoted to helping people embrace their natural hair. With Kai, we dove into the topics of hair and social justice: hair is not just something going on our bodies but it’s actually a topic of social justice and liberation. Hair and sustainability: the struggles of finding sustainable and clean products or curly and black hair. And lastly, hair and social media: how the topic of hair has been trending on social media, and the impacts it has made on our society. Here’s what Kai had to say.
Just to start off Kai, what is curl talk and what do you do within the org?
Okay so curl talk is is student organization created to create a dialogue space, a space to kind of destigmatize our associations with different hair types that have faced a lot of stigma historically and currently. And then also be able to have a community where we can talk about ways to take care of different types of hair, and or different experiences, and we tend to focus on issues of black hair, but we also share ideas about taking care of all different kinds of curled types and textures so making sure that it’s educational, as well as informative, and a comforting safe space for people to talk about these issues with people who either share similar experiences, or have not been able to have a space really before. You know, I mean it’s hair like a lot of people are very like what the heck. What could you possibly talk about with hair. And I asked myself that sometimes too especially when I’m talking to people who don’t experience the same things as me, I’m like, Yeah, explain to them that I like run a curly hair organization, they’re like okay, but we actually have really really engaging and interesting conversations and a lot of people don’t have either the people in their life to talk about this and how to properly treat and take care of their hair. I guess the words, the platform to really think about critically about the social political environment around these topics. And then also just to be able to bond with a lot of different people who are going through similar things, because a lot of us come from totally different places as far as our relationship with our hair and so some of us have been natural allies. Some of us have been our natural and that’s also a case I was just want to know how to best style between productive styles or whatever and so being able to talk about like a number of topics with somebody other than your stylist or beautician is so much fun, and it’s been it’s almost more educating than you would think it would actually end up being.
Curl Talk seems to have such a huge presence on campus already like from what I’ve seen on your guys’s Instagram, there’s so many people who come to your events which I think is really cool. What was your own natural hair journey like?
So, I have had an interesting relationship with my hair I feel like I grew up, and my mom, unconsciously kind of told me that my hair needed to be manipulated styled a certain way to do be deemed like respectable and presentable to other people and so I grew up. She had a perm in her hair so basically it was like chemicals that relaxed her hair and made her curl pattern straighter and more manageable as what a lot of people are asking under but I didn’t want to do, I didn’t want to go that route but I ended up straightening my hair. Like, every two to three weeks, ages like 10 through 17 and let’s say, and I didn’t really realize the amount of pressure that I was putting on my hair straightening it all the time, and how I wasn’t really allowing it to be at its natural state. And so I think I heard a lot about having curlier hair, or like a kinky coily hair type. Growing up, and how that’s like not, not, it’s not something that you would just wear out to turn true to school or to your work and I feel like I definitely internalized a lot of those narratives and that’s kind of why I straightened my hair as much as I did when I was younger. I also grew up around a lot of people that didn’t really look like me or shared similar like cultural experiences to me and so part of it was also probably following you know what was popular and I grew up around a lot of girls who had straight hair. And so I think part of it was my mom telling me, and maybe you should do something so that you look more professional, more socially acceptable. And then also me saying, everybody else was straight here and I was like, I guess that looks like the best way to go. And so, that’s a huge reason why when I got to college, I was like okay I’m one not going to the beauty salon every 2, 3, 4 weeks whatever because I don’t have the money. And I also don’t have the time. And I don’t really want to look for a stylist. I’m not, I’m not from Ann Arbor so that would have been a little complicated too. So I was like, I wouldn’t I’m just going to do my hair up and wear it naturally whatever I had so much heat damage was gross and of having a cut a lot of my hair off, like, a year after I guess I transitioned from wearing it mostly pressed to wearing it mostly natural, and I was really really really, it was like learning a new piece of me for the first time in my life at 18 years old and I was, it was kind of embarrassing, in some ways but also really, really, I guess, exciting and new and transformative for me to realize that something that I’d covered so much growing up, was something that I actually really loved and I was really excited to like embrace as a part of my identity I guess but also as part of like my own my creative, and personal expression.
I love that you use the word excited because I can tell on your face listening to you speak that you truly do feel excited about your natural hair, and it really just makes you feel like truly good inside to embrace it. I think it’s really cool and special so thank you so much for sharing that. You touched on this a little bit but I want to go back to when you use the phrase professional setting. Were you ever made to feel ashamed of your natural hair?
I was thinking about this question a little bit when you sent it earlier today and I think that, not that I could ever relate the experiences of my experience growing up with curly hair, to, let’s say, an experience of like somebody who’s like bigger like like fat or obese but like in a lot of ways to be like subconscious or unconsciously project these stigmas that we’re taught to be like so, like, socially unacceptable. And, and it’s, and I didn’t really know the ways that I like, internalize them into. Recently I guess in the past few years. And so just this idea that like, there was something wrong or something that needed to be transformed or changed about me, and I couldn’t just be who I wanted to be or who I was, like face value, was something that I definitely struggled with growing up. And, yeah, I guess, in a lot of ways the media too is always telling me that, you know or people in general, that there’s something that needs to be changed about you instead of just showing you how to like love and appreciate what you have and what you are, and realizing that all of those things that were coming at me all the time. Were they going from people who weren’t me, or people that I even care about was really monumental for me and so I’d say in the school setting, I definitely experienced that the most. And you know as we graduated like high school and are doing all this like, lengthen and creating all these accounts and stuff I was like, oh, like I want to project the quote unquote you know best version of myself, not knowing that I was perpetuating the same idea that there’s something wrong or something that needs to be altered when I’m presenting myself from other people. And so I would say definitely experienced that a ton, mostly in like school settings. And I guess, getting dressed up for prom in those kinds of things settings where I knew there are going to be pictures are new there are going to be eyes, and being able to come back then that was super empowering.
That’s amazing. On the flip side of that, was there anyone or anything in particular who inspired you to embrace your own natural hair, or even further than that? Who inspired you to take the step to join crawl talk and use curl talk as a way to educate others on natural hair and help them embrace their own natural hair journeys?
Yeah, I would definitely say my ancestors more than anything, My mom, you know, I mean she was, she was raised. And I guess a way where her mom also told her she needed to do a lot of things to be accepted or. And that’s just traditionally how people have operated and no shade to either them I just feel liberated knowing that I don’t have to follow those same ideas but I think my ancestors more than anybody because every time I heard like you need to do this you need to do that so pushing me in the box of like what I’m supposed to look like your house was to style my hair. I any like historical example that I could look at, I’m like, people are doing 100 different things all the time every single day. And so, realizing that none of, I guess, the narratives and the constraining narratives especially we’re like, I guess, traditional or rooted and like history or anything like that was comforting for me personally because I’m like, I can point to countries with 1000s of black women who weren’t straightening or relaxing. Relaxing their hair, whatever, and looked beautiful and loved and embraced you know what I mean without however they were styling their hair, and making sure that we can utilize examples from the past of, I guess ways that people were denouncing, kind of like social norms, creating their own spin on things was also really important to me when I guess delivering these messages to knit groups of people, making sure that none of this is like set in stone. This is just like we grew up, we have the issue is, is that a lot of people our age, we grew up a lot of black women our age, we grew up with the permed mothers straighten your hair hair down your back inches moms who thought, you know, if you don’t have long hair then you look like a boy. If you don’t, if you don’t have straight hair then people are gonna say that you look raggedy, we’re gonna say like dairy, whatever. And so unfortunately we’re all facing the back lash of those things, but the reality is is that their mothers, mothers were on that too. So it’s important for us to continue to evolve, just like this conversation of hair, and to not, I guess, take what we’ve learned. So literally and make that be like a defining piece for us.
Yeah, you’ve talked a lot about your relationship with your mom specifically. Do you think that as a result of you embracing your natural hair, you’ve also in a way influenced your mom to do the same?
Yes, it’s been beautiful to remember when I told her I was going to natural she was like, Um, okay. And two years ago this woman big chopped, like cut all of her hair and fully transitioned natural. And so I was like you thought I was crazy, not even 15 months ago I’m like it you know. So I’ve definitely seen the effects of just like me embracing my own hair on her, and other women in my life and that’s also been really really awesome for us, all of us really. Because once the thing, once you have that like representative of that kind of like self love, or I guess any, any part of your body that you’re really talking about love and embracing that. I feel like, then you can, it’s a lot easier for you to understand where that’s coming from. And I guess embodying yourself.
At the end of the day like the ingredients and most important part to me, and making sure that there’s, it’s not. Is that too many harsh chemicals that I’m putting in my hair but there’s also enough nourishing aspects that my hair is getting like the protein and the treatments that it needs so yeah definitely ingredients over brand.
Yeah, exactly. So I was going to ask, because by being like natural and clean ingredients are so important, especially if you want to use our nursery natural hair do you look for, like certain for sustainable like beauty products in general ones are like clean and actual. And one of my question is Do you just find it hard to like obtain those like are they readily available at the local supermarket, or do you have to go searching, and if that’s like a problem in your community.
Yeah, I definitely think that it’s important to me, but also a lot of sustainable brands have received backlash for like either having too simplistic of products or products that were like that expired really quickly, or, or wore off really quickly and so I think that it’s really unique to each individual person and so we get into the topic of like hair type. So we’re looking at like three a three B three C, or a four, or we foresee and all those different like different curl patterns but then we also get into hair porosity and so hair processing, low, high, medium, is looking at how well your hair like retains moisture and so it really is difficult, because you could have this same curl pattern as someone, but a totally different porosity and that product will work for them and literally your hair repulsive. And so I’d say, for me personally I am interested in more sustainable brands because they tend to be more environmentally friendly. But respectfully there aren’t a lot of options that like a local grocery store to get a lot of these products. And so a lot of people resort to like an Ulta, or even having new make the trek to a beauty supply, which is difficult like men are very and finding other ways to get their hair products because, as you can tell it like a Meijer, and a Target. They have a section that’s like technically I think they call it like textured haircare ethnic characters, something weird something weird, but they end up not having a whole lot of products and so I think it’s unique to each person but I definitely, I try to shop sustainably where I can and when I can.
Yeah. And so, the products that are this sustainable hard but you use are they, affordable, or are they more expensive side and how do you think that like impacts the consumers who bought who want to nourish their clean nursing care?
Right. Yeah, I think most of the products that like claim that whole sustainable label are on the higher end side. And so, similar to like makeup and beauty industry like every brand that gets to put clean on their label to hike up their prices by X amount of dollars and that is extremely rare I mean that’s like creating an even more like an equitable access to some of these products. When there’s another you know what I mean there’s Cantu that exists and it’s $5 for a conditioner but there’s, whatever. I don’t even, I don’t even remember what the name of the hair company was curl. They had a huge scandal about a year ago. Forget it, There’s there’s the higher end ones that claim of being sustainable and they get to charge five times that price and so when a lot of people are looking at it as haircare you know what I mean conditioner versus conditioner, they’re not going to be as willing to spend that extra money. And that doesn’t really seem like a necessary thing to do.
Yeah. I think so I think you did I answer your question. Yeah, I yeah I think I was just like asking, like has affected, like the consumers who want to buy the products.
I think I know, it makes them like oh this is expensive so I’m not going to buy it or I’d rather just buy this cheap one with all these chemicals and because I feel like in order to properly take care of like natural hair you need to like what you’re saying like nourish and all these things. But if products are too hard to buy or too expensive or too hard to access like. I’m just wondering if people just take the cheaper way and unfortunately more damaging way.
I, in my experience, I definitely think that this is like a really, this is like a fast growing industry and so I’ve, I’ve seen products and companies emerge out of thin air, it seems like in the past like year or two. And I think that for the most part, people aren’t doing too much when marketing, the price of their product, but at the same time it’s like a very serious concern when people are spending 12, 15, $20 on, you know what I mean something that they might only get a seven or eight uses out of. And I guess we definitely should be concerned about the way that hair companies are marketing their product to be used for aesthetic purposes or whether that be like actual treating and nourishing your hair because some people might be able to make the argument that certain cheaper products are way better than the higher end expensive products. So definitely, I definitely think that some, Some companies are making themselves harder to obtain and I think that all to ultimately kind of reinforces that same thing because I’ve noticed that they hike up their prices and a lot of things than it would normally be sold on any other website, or any other store, but they tend to be more accessible to because of the amount of locations that they have and so definitely think that people are trying to create like a super high end luxury market for haircare, but luckily right now I think that there are enough affordable options, that it’s not become like such a drastic concern for most.
Considering embracing your curly hair has been really brought attention to. And I just want to know, like some of your overall thoughts on that how Tik Tok has been kind of setting new trends for curly hair And showing girls that they can embrace their curls.
I love Tik Tok, Tik Tok is so funny. Every day that I get to log on to that app I swear I could easily scroll over hours I’ve got to stop myself. But I think that what people are doing on that app to spread awareness to different issues is really beautiful because it’s rare one that we get to talk about social issues and then non academic space. And so having this be accessible by more people. trouble
at institutions like the University of Michigan or are in school in general, or just aren’t around people were talking about this is really exciting to me and so I love that aspect. And then I also love the fact that like people are able to kind of translate something that, you know, they might not have felt super comfortable with, or they knew that they’ve faced stigma for, and other ways, and, and make it like really beautiful and artistic and so Tik Tok has done a pretty cool job of platforming, people who have really beautiful things to say about things that society might not want to really talk about ever making that, like, become a topic of conversation or at least a thought for some people who have been able to like historically ignore.
Yeah, totally. I mean, even for me I’ve learned so much from the hair community on Tik Tok too, personally I’ve tried, like some of the hair trends like the curly girl method.
What is the curly girl method?
It’s basically just a way of like when you get out of the shower, keep it super wet and then like scrunch it and plop it and put products in. So it’s basically a way for girls to like see their real curl patterns. And just so it dries like more naturally in the curls actually stay in rings and can show like I can’t see right now but I kind of like I have more wavy hair but I tried it out and did it and my hair got so much more curly, and I loved it. So I was just wondering if you’ve tried any of these trends or?
If you just like have like a really, really harsh chemical sheave color I’m like darker hair color is like my my natural hair color I have a little bit of dye in it right now but it’s like, pretty dark, and same creators who are diagnosed hair with like developer and other forms to light in their hair and then going over it with color that way and like being able to stick sustain your curl pattern when dyeing your hair which is like a lot of people have thought of it as something that would damage your hair or straightening your hair and transitioning back to natural like a lot of people are like, how do you shave your head still have curls and it’s like, I’m using 350 degrees instead of 450.
And it’s, it’s small things like that there were a lot of people were like, oh so you can actually make these switches, a lot easier and they don’t have to be as drastic or damaging or as permanent as I’ve thought of them knew or thought of them to be has been really cool. Definitely. And like he just mentioned the 300 series instead of orange theories. Do you have any other small tips and tricks that you could share. Yeah definitely, because I’m somebody I feel like I like to wear my hair in a multitude of styles so I do like to share my hair sometimes definitely like to braid and twist and all of those kinds of things and so making sure that whatever you’re doing to achieve a certain style isn’t damaging or breaking your hair is super important. So something that I didn’t do in high school that I definitely do now is use the right and appropriate heat protectants and all those for my hair before straining or buying any kind of view to it. I also use way less heat and my hairdresser back always use hot comb which I’m like, is it the 1950s is is a hot calm, and then he would also go in with the straightener and I use significantly less heat than he’s ever applied to my hair love them, but I’m happy to use these a little less and also making sure that I’m using products that are created to, I guess, loosen my curl pattern so a lot of people have used like keratin, and all that to make their hair more manageable, or to loosen their texture and make it maybe a little bit so gear so it’s easier to manipulate. I also try to refrain from those products, because at the end of the day I want my hair to be able to bounce back into the curls in its natural state. I don’t have to deal with either trimming off new dead ends and all that every time I switch styles. I also think that something that is super important is protecting your hair, wherever and whenever you can. And so I do like to wear my hair all the time but it’s really important at night to either wrap up your hair, wear some kind of like sleeping cat on it, whatever, to make sure that you’re not exposing your hair to, you know, I mean the things that are on your face and on your body and the dry air while you’re sleeping, and making sure that it retains the moisture and the product that you just put in your hair and the sad drag overnights and it’s like what they wear it all the time go as it all got sent 30 minutes down my hair just for me to, to all soak into my coke is overnight.
But yeah definitely small like upkeep tips like that and trimming your hair I trimmed my hair so much more. Honestly, it’s probably less, because I’m not going to the stylist as much, but making sure that you’re paying attention or let you have dead ends and looking at your hair and being able to absorb those certain things, it’s really important.
Knowing your hair type, and your hair porosity so that you’re not using other products that your YouTube favorites are recommending. Instead you’re using products that are actually created for your hair type is the most important thing because I used to be so confused. Why, like me and all my roommates are natural, and I used to be so confused I couldn’t use one of my roommates products and it’s like, you literally have two completely different types of hair, despite it like maybe looking or picturing the same. And so making sure that you really understand all of the nitty gritty facets of your hair, and also understand that it changes, like your skin.
So like with skincare a lot of people try to use the same routine for six months on end and your skin is like hey, that was winter and now it’s summer I need something new, and realizing that your hair is constantly changing. And so being able to be adaptable, understanding, and consider of your hair is like specific needs are the most important things to me, and harder to like achieve. I guess your hair goals are really having a really good relationship with your hair and your curls.
Those are awesome tips. And lastly, do you have any hair accounts that you’d like to follow or any recommendations for accounts for everyone to follow.
I, I really excited about all of the emerging new beauty brands and so definitely some of my favorites. And God it’s natural Design Essentials.
Even pattern beauty. I heard that she doesn’t have great products for Tracee Ellis Ross I heard she doesn’t have great products for all hair types but still some of like the words and the narratives that we use to like uplift different curly hair types is really important and I think that she does a good job of that. I also listen to podcasts. Some of my favorites are like a money state of mine which is a black woman like therapists and psychologists who talks about enjoying and embracing yourself. All of the therapy for black girls monochrome on. And I guess all of the like self help podcasts have been really monumental for me for honestly embracing all emotional and social aspects for myself.
Yeah, I don’t have any more questions, but I definitely like wrote down some of the product recommendations you had, because I started bleaching my hair and it got literally just so gross and damaged by, and like I used to have.
I think it was. I had like mostly 2c curls. Okay, I was trying to like work on products to, I don’t know, kind of like make my curls like formed better, but then I bleached it and it all went so it’s so refreshing to hear people call their hair what it is.
Everybody who has less than 3c curls is always like, I am three I mean it’s like no it’s okay but it’s okay that you don’t pay you don’t. Thank you. Thank you for saying to see I don’t think I’ve heard it ever but really does. I think that I know a lot of people are with looser curl patterns and I’ve given variables to some of their products I sell but like Miss Jessie’s is a really good brand like their stuff jelly curls or something.
I’ve heard a lot of really good reviews about it so definitely check them out if you can.
So, just to bring it all the way back to curl talk for one final question. I know you’re graduating, but it seems like you’ve left a really strong legacy in crawl talk. Where do you see curl going in the future, what, what are your hopes for curl talk, moving forward.
Yeah, definitely. And then, immediate future, I hope that we can have in person meetings again, because it’s really really just so special to be in that space of everybody. And everyone is so vulnerable and happy to share these experiences because a lot of us have never been able to talk about them in such an intimate way before.
And so definitely in the immediate future, be able to be with everyone and hug everyone and be there for everyone and laugh and all that. I’m really excited for this next Ebor to feel the experience and addition now I would really really like, there’s like a student organization called curl friends at MSU. That does similar.
They host similar kinds of events and conversations and so I would like for us to grow outside of our University of Michigan campus and have our voices our perspectives heard across the nation at least or across the state at least and then hopefully nation, maybe national because I feel like this space that we’ve cultivated, I think, like, even some like gender studies or even racial studies scholars would would have a really interesting take on like the history of marginalizing like heritage.
I think that could be really really interesting and so yeah, I’m excited to see where they go. I just hope that they continue to make connections and concelebrate across all spectrums and dimensions.
If you’re interested in following Curl Talk, check them out on Instagram and Tik Tok @curltalkumich. also check out these podcasts Kai recommends: Imani State of Mind, Therapy For Black Girls, and Black Girls in Om.
