Wed, 4/28 12:52PM 31:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pennsylvania, worked, impacts, solutions, sustainability, climate change, environment,
class, climate action plans, terms, sarah, climate impacts, listening, environmentalism, epa,
opportunity, climate action plan, issues, climate
SPEAKERS
Sarah Pinter, Jon Haisfield
Jon Haisfield 00:26
Welcome to this episode of Michigan voices. I’m your host, Jon Haisfield. And today we
take a dive into issues surrounding the world we live in. whether we realize it or not,
everyone interacts with the environment on a daily basis, the air we breathe, the water we
drink, and the food we consume is all sourced from the environment. The environment is
constantly feeding us the resources we need to survive. So it is imperative that we strive to
protect it. But what exactly can we and future generations do? What role can we serve in
the greater scheme of things? Today, we seek to answer some of these questions by
taking a glimpse into those who play a role in helping to solve some of the biggest issues
surrounding our environment, working toward providing us with a more sustainable future.
Joining us today will be Sarah painter, on Ohio University alum who majored in
mathematics and statistical environmental science. Before getting her master’s in
sustainability management at American University. post graduate degree, Sarah worked
on the federal level for the Environmental Protection Agency, the EPA, and now works in
the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection. Before we begin this interview,
we just have a brief disclaimer that must be addressed.
Sarah Pinter 01:42
What I am saying in this interview is reflective of my experience and my opinions, and it
doesn’t reflect what is happening at the state level of Pennsylvania. I’m not claiming to
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represent the EP. I’m not claiming to represent the governor’s office. These are just my
thoughts.
Jon Haisfield 01:59
So without further ado, Sarah, welcome to the podcast. And thank you for joining us.
Would you like to start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself?
Sarah Pinter 02:09
Hi, I’m Sarah printer. Now, I’m currently an executive policy specialist with the
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection. I grew up in Pennsylvania, in
moon Township, which is outside of Pittsburgh, real close to the airport, if you’ve ever
flown through that airport, went to school out there. I went to college at Ohio University in
Athens, Ohio, not Ohio State the other one. And I got a Bachelor of specialized studies in
mathematics and statistical environmental science there. And I was involved with our
student senate as our Environmental Affairs Commissioner in my senior year, moved on
from there to graduate school at American University where I studied sustainability
management. My first job from there was moving into the Environmental Protection
Agency at the federal level, which I worked in the national Homeland Security Research
Center, which no longer exists, so
Jon Haisfield 03:13
Wow. And now you work for the pvp. So clearly, you’re very well versed in the
environmental protection and sustainability industry, having worked on both the federal
and state level, I’m curious as to what led you down that path? And were you always
interested in these topics?
Sarah Pinter 03:33
Actually, not at all, I did not know coming into college that I was in interested in
environmental stuff whatsoever. When I entered college, I was majoring in Mathematical
Statistics. And the reason that I chose that major is because I had a statistics teacher in
high school who told me I was not good at it. And so I said, I’ll show you all major in it. But
what really brought me down the path of environmentalism was you know, it was my fall
semester freshman year. So I was just starting out, and I needed to take one more class,
and I’m looking over my options, and I’m looking at the schedule I currently have. And I’m
saying, Okay, so, Tuesday and Thursday, I have this kind of like opening and it would be
good to take a class at that time. So you went through our course catalog and kind of
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filtered by, you know, this is the day in time I want to take a class, what can I use to like fill
my schedule to keep my scholarship, and I was offered the choice between ecology and
the 21st century or Vietnamese. And I’m sure that there would have been a very interesting
timeline where I did choose Vietnamese and now know how to tweak it. But in this reality, I
thought that ecology on the 21st century would be the better choice for me. So I, you
know, started my classes and the first three days of that class, I thought, oh my god, this is
So boring. I couldn’t take it. And I was honestly getting ready to drop the class because we
were just going over things like, what’s a biome versus a hemisphere? And I was like, I can’t
believe this as a college class, like, I’m not at all interested in this. And then the day that I
was gonna decide, like, all right, so like in class today goes, Well, I’m gonna just continue
with this to get the science credit. And if not, I’ll just drop it in, figure out something else.
And in that day, in class, we started to get into the, the 21st century problems of ecology in
the 21st century. And I mean, I can really pinpoint the moment in that lecture that led me
down the path that I’m currently on. And it’s one my professor, he showed a slide like an
image, a satellite image of an algal bloom in the Gulf of Mexico that was so large, it could
be seen from space. And that image has stuck in my mind for all of these years, because
like, Oh, my God, like that was the moment that I realized, like this is now this is
happening. And like, I didn’t realize how serious this could be like, we can see the damage
that we are doing in real time. Like, it’s so obvious how did I never think about this before.
And so from then on, I was like, absolutely hooked on this class. I loved it, it was really
fascinating. But also, you know, as I’m sure you’ve talked about sustainability a lot, it
seems like so, you know, also, like, fascinating, but alarming. So I took that class, loved it,
finished it out. And I thought, well, I want to know more about this. And so I started taking
more ecology classes. And then I got into from ecology into like, forest ecology, and then
plants. And so my minor ended up being in botany. And so I kind of grew out from just this
one moment, you know, I think a lot of people who were in the sustainability field, have
stories about growing up, and you know, they would fish with their dad and go on family
hikes. And like, it’s always been a part of their lives. But I was somebody who, you know, I
grew up pretty standard suburban, like we’ve been outside, but we weren’t out in the
mountains every weekend or anything like that. And so it was really a matter of being in a
position to try something new. That led me to where I currently am. And I you know, that’s
some of the advice that I give to everybody who’s like just starting out in college is just try
whatever it is that you think might be interesting to you, because it taking this one class,
because it fit in my schedule at this time, change the trajectory of my life for the better. It
really has become like from that class forward. just such a passion for me that I never
realized that I could even be interested in.
Jon Haisfield 07:53
So Moral of the story, take advantage of all you can, because you never know what
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opportunities may come your way. Wow, that’s just that’s so interesting. And then from
there, you went on to get your master’s in sustainability management. And after that got a
job working for the EPA. So what was that like?
Sarah Pinter 08:14
So I worked for technically, my employer was Oakridge associated universities. But I didn’t
really I mean, that’s what it said on my paycheck. But I worked at the EPA in n hsrc, every
day. And so it was just a process of like, keep putting out the applications until somebody
gives you a chance. And so I did not only apply it EPA, I applied to like World Wildlife
Fund, you know, all of the other big names The Nature Conservancy, so it took a lot of
patience, but I did eventually get the call and then end up getting the job. And I started
there in January of 2018.
Jon Haisfield 08:58
Okay, so you get the job for the Environmental Protection Agency, the EPA, and then
what exactly did you do?
Sarah Pinter 09:05
So as I mentioned, I worked at the National Homeland Security Research Center, and to
reflect on my time there is very funny to me, because one of the big things that I was
helping with was the national bio defense strategy. And so the idea there was that the
United States up until the plan was published, did not have one centralized plan across all
of the government agencies about how to handle a biosecurity or biodefense hazard, like
a terrorist attack in terms of like a deadly pathogen or a pandemic, which ended up you
know, like only like less than a year later becoming a huge issue and so getting to see
very up close how the process of Planning for that when, while I was working there, it was
really, really interesting, even just for the sake of doing it, and without even knowing that,
you know, this huge world altering event was coming down the pike, and we would need
to handle it, it was also very much like a learning opportunity for me. So I got to go to
several different, like, comm says like the blue ribbon panel on bio defense and just kind of
listen to experts a lot, which was really, really cool.
Jon Haisfield 10:30
Okay, so what sort of topics did these panels cover
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Sarah Pinter 10:34
a wide range of topics, but basically, disease outbreaks, you know, malicious biosecurity
hazards from, you know, like other countries, what they might do if they were trying to do
a bio attack on the US.
Jon Haisfield 10:50
Okay, so you are listening to these panels with government officials discussing some very
big topics, dealing with the environment and environmental policy? Can you sort of pull us
into these conversations as far as what are they like? And how do we go about
approaching such issues?
Sarah Pinter 11:08
There is so so much collaboration, and even for as much as we did, like, there’s always
somebody who you’re not going to think to bring to the table. Because there are just so
many people who have so many different areas of expertise. But you know, like, we met
with everybody from the Forest Service, and the Department of Agriculture to people in
the CDC, and you know, across the world, like all of these different, interesting experts
who had something to bring to the table in terms of telling us what the best practices are,
and how we might be able to apply them. But I think the spirit of collaboration is
absolutely like, the cheapest thing that I noticed is, you know, recognizing that we cannot
have all of the answers because we don’t like we have such a narrow focus in what it is
that we think about. And that’s not the whole story. And I think that you really start to see
that most pronounced when you bring in the social sciences, this is a thing that’s
becoming a lot more mainstream to talk about, but like issues of environmental justice
and environmental racism, you know, what happens when our standard procedures and
our standard permitting and you know, the way that we’ve always addressed both, you
know, mundane, everyday issues, like where to put, you know, a factory that’s going to
emit pollution versus like, how do we respond to disaster? We’ve done things in a certain
way for so long, not realizing that it doesn’t help everybody equally. And that’s, there are a
lot of reasons for that. And how do you identify what those reasons are, and address it so
that you do have more equitable outcomes in the future. So I think really bringing in as
many people as we could was, like, the most important thing that we could do in terms of
creating plans that actually help you can’t expect to have a plan that serves people that
you haven’t talked to, right, like if this is going to directly affect somebody, or how they
might be able to either, you know, live the rest of their lives comfortably or respond to a
disaster, whatever the case may be, you know, if you’re not talking to them about what
will happen in their communities, but you don’t, you can’t possibly create the right plan for
them.
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Jon Haisfield 13:33
Yes, I agree. I think collaboration is imperative in solving our biggest issues. I mean, the
more people we talk to, the more input we get, the more options and ideas we have to
choose from. And I think that’s one of the things that that EPA does well, is that they they
talk to the right people.
Sarah Pinter 13:53
Absolutely, absolutely. You want to think about all of your stakeholders and how it might
impact them. I think that was basically the crux of it for me was, you know, talk to smart
people always as much as you can. Because you always, always always benefit from
speaking to somebody who knows more about the topic than you, especially if your work
directly pertain to the thing that they know more about.
Jon Haisfield 14:17
Yes, definitely. Definitely. So now to segue into what you currently do, you worked for the
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, and part of what you do is deal
with making climate action plans. So what does that entail?
Sarah Pinter 14:33
So I will say that that is largely the effort of our energy programs office here in
Pennsylvania, and they are just an absolutely fantastic team. But I oversee two programs
in the policy office, I oversee the energy Programs Office and I oversee our bureau of air
quality. And so this is a program of the energy Programs Office. It was originally part of
act 70 of two 1009 that said we had to start doing climate action plans. And so there have
been several iterations of these, they’re supposed to be updated every three years. And so
we’re on the 2021 iteration of both the climate impacts assessment and the Climate
Action Plan. And so the Climate Action Plan is not a policy document, necessarily, what it
does is, it shows Okay, these are Pennsylvania’s climate goals. And here are some actions
that Pennsylvania could take, in order to reach them. It’s not prescriptive. So we don’t
have to do everything A, B, and C in the exact order that says in there, but these are, you
know, the most salient ways to reduce our carbon emissions is what you would find in the
Climate Action Plan. The climate impacts assessment has taken a little bit more of a
variant form over the years, for example, or 2018. Climate Action Plan talks a lot more
about impacts to the Chesapeake Bay and agriculture and that sort of thing. Where as
the 2021 version is much more of a holistic approach, which we’ll be covering, what are the
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impacts to health? What are the impacts to the economy? What are the impacts to
agriculture, and forestry, and really trying to take a more holistic approach to thinking
about climate, especially in terms of looking specifically for environmental justice issues,
and seeing how equity pieces in to how people are already feeling the impacts of climate
change, and how we can use that information to come up with more equitable solutions in
the future.
Jon Haisfield 16:42
So you helped develop climate action plans, finding ways to combat climate change?
Obviously, the discussion of climate change is a giant one. And there are a variety of
perspectives on it, you know, you get some people who claim that we’re way too late. And
there’s nothing that can be done others who don’t even believe in it at all. And so clearly,
climate change is a real thing. And it is an issue. My question for you is, how much farther
Do you think we have to go in terms of finding a solution? Have we just barely scratched
the surface? And what can we do to help?
Sarah Pinter 17:18
That’s the big question. But I think the first thing to caution is that environmental nihilism
is not going to help anyone. And certainly, it will not help the people who are most
vulnerable to feeling the impacts of climate change, you know, it’s unavoidable that we
will continue to feel those impacts, but we have the opportunity now, to make sure it
doesn’t get worse than it already will be. And in the process of making sure that we’re
drawing down those carbon emissions, to keep future generations safer, we also have to
make sure that the solutions are not going to be harmful in any way in terms of, you know,
economic impacts, because we know that people who, you know, live closer to coastlines,
or live in arid climates are already facing existential threats. And a lot of times these are
the most vulnerable people across the world. And so those are the people that we really
need to keep in mind. You know, I’m extremely lucky that, you know, I live very
comfortably in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, we’re not really at risk of any direct, severe,
threatening climate impacts right here. Pennsylvania’s biggest threat is going to be heat
waves in the next century, and you know, I have air conditioning, right? These aren’t things
that like will impact me directly, as much as it will impact other people. And that’s
incredibly important to keep in mind. Because, you know, when we think about how
people will feel what will happen with climate change, a lot of us who have the ability to
be a keenly aware of the issues in in an academic sense, and have the opportunity to
understand the climate dynamics at play, will not be the ones really feeling it when all is
said and done. And so, you know, you’re really saying if your position is that, well, climate
change is happening, there’s nothing we can do to stop it. Now, we might as well not try,
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you are only doing more existential harm to the people who are most vulnerable to feeling
it. And that will be people in poorer countries that will be people who live in, you know, I
think of places like Philadelphia or Washington DC, where there is a history of redlining
and people who are going to be in the floodplains when sea levels start rising, are the
poorest and most vulnerable among us. And so I do think that, you know, is there one
solution to climate change? No, there’s not that’s why it’s important that we create plans
that are sort of everybody involved because we have so much that can be done. And we
need to make sure we’re choosing the solutions in the most beneficial way possible. And
again, you know, I kind of mentioned this before, but the way that you do that is to talk to
people who are smarter than you who know more about it, and can come up with ways to
make sure that the solutions that they’re bringing to you can have the greatest impact. So
it’s, it’s a matter of, first of all, talking about what the needs are, because there’s not going
to be one solution that works everywhere, it will have to be a regional approach. And it
will have to be, you know, considerate of the needs of people of communities and whole
countries and where they’re at in their development. And it also has to be, you know,
something that isn’t going to be so slow and gradual that it’s almost like we’re not doing
anything at all. But it also can’t be so rapid that it’ll collapse. And we have to go back to
the old way of doing things. You know, it’s extremely complicated, and there are solutions
available, but it will take a lot more political will and the associated funding than we
currently have for it.
Jon Haisfield 21:12
So you bring out the fact that we need more political will, I don’t really want this to get too
political. But exactly how important is it to have leaders in our government invested in
climate policy, and moving climate policy forward,
Sarah Pinter 21:28
it is a huge difference, it makes a huge difference, to have leadership at the highest levels
of government that are interested in moving climate policy forward. And not only that,
but they’re doing so in a way that is giving consideration to, you know, the people that will
be impacted by the changes that need to be made to preserve our environment. And it’s
not even just the fact that they are doing that. But the fact that that sends a signal down
to the state and local level, that you will have backing for the things that you need to do
on on your more localized scales. This is not an endorsement of any particular politician, it
is just saying that when you have leadership at the highest levels, that is going to be
supportive of what you’re doing, it makes the whole process, you know, down at the lower
levels closer to the state, local community level a lot easier to me.
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Jon Haisfield 22:27
I couldn’t agree more. So climate action plans and climate impact assessments are part of
the energy Programs Office, but there is another side of your job that is involved with the
Bureau of air quality. So what is their role?
Sarah Pinter 22:44
So I would say that mostly what they’re doing is, is more on the regulatory and about
putting limitations on what can go into our atmosphere. And they’ll they do research and
some grants as well. But they have more of the jargon and have the job, I guess. Not. And I
don’t mean to say that to denigrate them, because they are I mean, like that’s the bulk of
how we’re protecting the environment. It’s a lot less glamorous and a lot harder, but like
the most essential piece of what we do in terms of creating a clean environment.
Jon Haisfield 23:22
Okay, so they deal with a lot of the regulations that deal with what gets put into our
atmosphere, I guess what comes to my mind, and maybe that’s just because we’re just
talking about climate change is co2. One of
Sarah Pinter 23:37
the interesting things to note is that co2 is not considered a criteria pollutant. And that’s
not just a Pennsylvania thing that’s, you know, across the country. And so what that
means is that, you know, we don’t consider carbon to be one of the things that affects air
quality the most. And so that’s an interesting dynamic as well, because while it is having
this heating effect, it is a naturally occurring part of our environment. And so you know, we
have criteria pollutants, like oxides of nitrogen, oxides of sulfur, and so you know, a lot of
times when we’re doing regulations, they’re more focused on criteria pollutants, but we
don’t have at a at a national scale, we don’t have a great framework for regulating how
much co2 gets into the atmosphere because it is a naturally occurring part of our
atmosphere.
Jon Haisfield 24:38
So then what sort of steps are we taking to prevent it?
Sarah Pinter 24:42
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There’s a lot there’s so much so it’s a matter of putting requirements in place through
either the alternative energy portfolio standards or other methods to set a minimum
number of like a minimum amount of electricity that has to be generated through
renewable non carbon sources. And it also has to do with how you’re regulating pollutants
put into the atmosphere from industry and our manufacturing processes. Yeah. So I mean,
it’s it’s about drawing it down and creating a lower carbon electricity grid. It’s also about,
you know, we’re transitioning to more electric vehicles. And that’s something that the
state and the country as a whole will be supporting in the ways that we can. But that’s not
something that has to come from the state level, because I would say that we are already
reaching market maturity for passenger electric vehicles, we still have a ways to go, I think
on medium and heavy duty, meaning basically like trucks and vans that you use to
transport things. But light duty passenger vehicles are a huge source of transportation. In
California, for example, transportation is the number one source of carbon pollution. So
just getting people out of internal combustion engine vehicles is another huge way that we
can do that.
Jon Haisfield 26:07
Wow. So out of all aspects to the environment and environmental policy you deal with?
What is of most interest to you? And what are you most passionate about?
Sarah Pinter 26:19
I guess, I would say that I spend the most time on our Climate Action Plan and impact
assessment. And I do think that that is extremely interesting to me just to learn, you know,
what exactly is happening in Pennsylvania because of climate change? And what can we
do to make it better, both in terms of like, how do we draw down the carbon, but also, how
do we build solutions that benefit everyone in Pennsylvania? equitably?
26:53
Wow.
Jon Haisfield 26:54
So my last question is a bit of an obvious one. But nonetheless, it’s very important. A lot of
people listening to this are going to be college students and millennials looking to make
change. What sort of advice would you have for someone who is concerned about
environmental issues? Or maybe just even wants to learn more about them? How can we
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future generations do our part? And what advice do you have to give them
Sarah Pinter 27:24
just if there’s anything that interests you just go for it? Seriously, like that is how I found
what I now love to do. If you find something that sparks your interest, like even if it doesn’t
seem like it fits with what else you’re trying to do? Allow yourself the opportunity to try it
because it is only good things have ever happened for me, because I’ve been willing to put
myself into new and interesting areas. In terms of sustainability. Specifically, I will again,
bring up something I said before about like, Don’t lose hope. Don’t be nihilistic, you know,
there will be people after us who inherit what we have now. And you know, our generation
did not cause this problem. But like it or not, we will be the ones to live through it. So how
do we create a better future for ourselves? And how do we save future generations from
disaster? That’s a huge question. And so for my third piece of advice, I will pull from my
dad, and I’ve used it, I think, in every interview, and anybody who will listen to me for more
than 15 minutes at a time, will have heard me say this, at some point, I was expressing
some similar concerns to what you were earlier about how everything about
environmentalism right now is it’s just so bleak. And it’s so sad, and I feel like I don’t have
any hope. And I just don’t know what to do. Because how are we ever going to fix this?
How can I ever do anything that could fix this. And, you know, he said to me, there’s a lot
wrong in the world. But you don’t have to change the entire world all by yourself, you just
have to do whatever you can to make your corner of the world better. And that really
changed my perspective on environmentalism as a whole. Because, you know, I can’t fix
everything that’s wrong with the world, but I have the opportunity to help my own little
corner of the world to be better, and to do our part. And so you know, I grew up in
Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania is my corner of the world I can do what I can to make this a
better place for the people that live here. And if everybody adopted this attitude of you
know, I don’t have to fix what’s going on everywhere all the time. But I can help with this
issue in my community now we would be in so much better of a place and you know,
obviously balanced that with it’s easier to work together than to work in cloisters. And so
you know, collaborate where you can learn what you can from people who are smarter.
Neil, but don’t get overwhelmed by the scale of the problem when you have the
opportunity to make things noticeably better in the community that you find yourself in in
the space that you find yourself in. And fourth and final, just pick up some litter. It’s really
like the easiest best thing that you can do. It requires no education, no extra skills, just get
out and pick up some trash. Even if you just take like a little shopping bag with you and fill
that up and then toss it. You’ve helped the environment. You did that all by yourself, and
you’re contributing less to that giant garbage patch in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
Jon Haisfield 30:53
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Jon Haisfield 30:53
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Michigan voices. Thank you to Sarah for
a great interview. Sarah, for those who don’t know is actually the sister of a current UVM
student, Noah who also helped put together this season. Keep listening to hear with him
and Julia have to say in the next episode, it is a great one. We have an amazing season
lined up for you and are very excited to share it. I’m your host Jon Haisfield. And this was
gaining ground
